Ok, I have avoided this, and it probably will not get too much of a response, but are you Armenian or Calvinist? Lets get to the real question though, do you believe that God creates people and predestines them to either heaven or hell, and that there is nothing a human can do to change this?
There are billions of arguments throughout history about this, and it is one of the more heated debates I have seen. Lets not get ugly here, but I just want to hear who believes what, and a little of why.
I personally am VERY Armenian. I cannot fathom how one could possibly believe that a God who defines himself as love could possibly create people with the sole purpose of sending them to hell for all eternity, and only granting a few (relatively) people the honor of spending eternity with him, and NOT because of anything they did, but simply because it suited him at the time of the decision. For me, this is utterly ridiculous to believe that, and even after arguing with Cavinists at fairly great length, just can't fathom how anyone can believe that given that the whole of the bible clearly contradicts this view. Of course they would say otherwise, but all the arguments I have heard are to me very illogical, require some major twisting of scripture, and if true would turn the bible and Christianity into a circus. My bible says "for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that who-so-ever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life". The Calvinist bible would read; "for God so loved only some people he created, that he sent his son to die for no reason at all, but instead just because it seemed like a pretty cool random thing to do at the time, and hey, God likes torturing people, so why not his son too! But really you are saved because I decided you where saved at the beginning of time, and the rest of you pukes, well, have fun burning in the lake of fire suckers!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!! I am so happy that I made you burn! It just gives me great pleasure to know you are suffering for eternity and could do nothing about it!"
Ok, I just made this heated, didn't I? Well, I suppose it was bound to get that way ;)
Ok, that is my very abbreviated view on that. What's yours?
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I am not claiming to be an authority on this matter, but I can share with you my take on the subject. I consider myself an Armenian- Calvanist. The Bible clearly points to both predestination and mans responsibility. We can't pick and choose which parts of the Bible we want to believe and which parts make us uncomfortable.
In our finite minds, this may make us uncomfortable and uneasy not to have it all neatly organized in black and white, but God chose not reveal all things to us. I believe, as unsettling as it is, these two points must coexist.
God gives us a choice, yet already knows because He is all- knowing. He knew each one before we were created, so it would stand to reason, that He knows whether or not we are going to follow Him.
Being an engineer, I'm sure you are familiar with the properties of light. It's properties are unique and still not understood in that it is both a particle and a wave. One of my old pastors described the topic using light as a metaphor. He called it a wavicle.
I believe (similarly to Jen) in both. I don't fully understand it though. Another interesting, and maybe a little bit similar topic is the question of whether or not our prayers can change God's mind/heart/decisions about things.
Specifically, can we affect other people's salvation? Even if someone is predestined to reject God (notice I used both choice and predestination;-), can the prayers of the saints (that's any Christian, for all of you Catholics out there) affect the outcome of their salvation? If your first inclination is to say no, then what if those prayers are from numerous people who are dedicated to the cause?
Interesting points Jen and Mike! My brother-in-law, a pastor at a church of God church would agree with this. He calls himself a Calmenian. Interestingly, I agree with both of you. I think my argument for the Arm side of things stems largely from dealing with the Cals, which are largely extremely glued to their side of this issue. They use clever but ridiculous arguments to say things like "well, the world in God so loved the world is not really the world, but a pizza parlor in Brooklyn", or the numerous verses that state simply "God desires that all men be saved" as "well, you see, all here means spleen-leak and since the orthodox pinicle of your southern imagination is in its apex, so it can't really mean all", you get my super sarcastic drift. Anyway, as you know the Calvinist core verses that they point to are legit, but their constant battling to put down anything that proves that men have a choice in to make makes me sick.
To sum up, I completely agree that God knows who is saved, no question, but that is not Calvinism. Pauls reference to predestination is hard to deal with, as to me it is not clearly stating that God has literally all control over your salvation, and you have none, but it also does seem to indicate some form of election. So, what am I left with? Well, I have to point to the whole of the Bible which to me has to pretty much conclude with "both are right, and we don't understand God". The Cals can stuff it if they don't agree.
I agree totally with Jen. That is how I view predestination as well. And you know "Gods ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts" so we can't understand the mind of God. But I do not believe that he points to one person and says, 'no, you cannot be saved' and the next one and says, 'you can be saved'. The Crawfords are very strong on Calvinism and Susan told me "YOU HAVE to believe in predestination. Well, no I don't. But I believe there is a blending of the two in the Bible.
I believe that if you believe firmly in predestination, then you also believe that God is inheirently an evil God. Creating the bulk of humanity with the soul purpose of sending them to hell to be utterly tortured in ways we can't even fathom a billionth of a percentage of, would make God evil. You are right, we don't know God, but if God is love, this simply cannot be. Nobody will ever convince me that it is "love" to condem people to eternal torture for your jollies. That is BS. It amazes me tha people can actual convince themselves that this could even possibly be true.
I am a five point calvanist (if I dare to define myself other than a Christian). By your comments I would say that you are going by your own understanding of God. Read Romans chapter 9. God doe's not send people to hell- our unvorgiven sin doe's. I am chosen (that is what Christ said). We have not chosen Him He chose us. You also may wan to understand that many bible scholars are Calvanist and believe in limited attonement. Historically in the Hebrew marriage, the father picks the bride John 10:29,17:9. You might also say that for by grace you have been saved through faith and that NOT OF YOUSELF it is the gift of God. If there is free will that all can come to Christ, then God gave all faith in Christ. That is not the truth. All you have to do is ask the unbeliever if he believes. There is also the sovereignty of God and the grace of God. To say that I chose God is saying that I have a part in my salvation. That is a proud statement and is MERITED FAVOR. The evangelist is a farmer that plants the seed, but God prepares the soil and doe's the increase. If you read 2 Peter 3:9 in it's content with proper hermanuetics, you will see that it is a promise to USWARD that He is not willing that any shall perish. I am sad to say that many have taken this verse out of content to fit their Armenian theology. John 3:16 doe's not say that God saved the world but that WHOSOEVER shall believe shall be saved. It further says that the demons believe and they tremble (James 2:19). There is much to say about proper hermanuetics and not goin by your own understanding of God.
I do consider myself a TULIP Calvinist. I do not pretend to understand the ways and means of God, but I do know my responsibility as a believer in Jesus Christ is to share the gospel with the entire world. Therefore I am not a Calvinist who sits on her rear end and does nothing. I don't know who is chosen and who is not.
The Armenian faith believes there is enough good in man to get him “down the aisle.” Scripture clearly teaches that man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9) There is nothing godly or good in man apart from God. While someone can do “good things,” it is all for nothing. It is like filthy rags according to Scripture. The HS must call. It is God who builds the Church.
This will never negate the fact that God loves each and every person equally. He desires that all come to repentance.
The best explanation I heard of this was of a railroad track. God's will and man's free will are clearly evident in scripture. They are parallel; just like a railroad track.
Yet, if you view them in the distance, they come together at some point. It will be then at a point in the future, even perhaps in Heaven, that we will understand all the counsel of God.
Until then, I keep pluggin' along, doing my part in winning a lost world to HIM.
Hi Eric, my personality finds it easier to accept Armenianism, but my logic and ratio leans heavily towards Calvinism. After studying the issue for more than 15 years, I feel more comfortable with the Calvinistic views as it gives glory to God and doesn't try to be human centric.
"21. Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honour an another for dishonour? 22. What if God, wanting to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"(Romans 9:21-22)
The very thing which make me comfortable with Calvinism is that I don't question God's business and perogative, if it is fair, if it is just, if it is cruel. I know he does everything in His good pleasure. Surrender is the key word here.
And if I am wrong, I haven't taken away one bit of God's Sovereignty. On the other hand, if I were to choose Armenianism and I am wrong, I have taken away what is His ultimate perogative. I rather err on the safe side....
If a soldier can follow his general's commands without questions, why can't I give glory to Him who created me? I only would doubt His wisdom if I have no faith in Him.
I know that my Lord is by far more powerful, just, loving than any general on this earth. So I am happy that my fate is his Grand Master Plan. I am happy that I am his puppet. I am happy that I am his robot. As even as a puppet or a robot, when I surrender, His power in shone in perfect....
How beautiful is that?
How did I come to this, from my initial Armenian views? When my wife was diagnosed with cancer, we asked ourself so many times, why us? What did we do to displease You? We were so committed to the church. But the answer is simple. So noone can boast. Commitment is still human power. Surrendering is His power.
When we accepted His Master Plan and our destiny, we were at peace. Because we trust Him. We don't question is perfect plan.
"Therefor he has mercy on whom he wills, and whom he wills he hardens" Roman 9:18
"For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brethen. 30. Moreover whom he predestined, these he also called; whom he called, these he also justified; and whom he justified, these he also glorified."Romans 8:29-30.
May the Holy Spirit be with you.
In Christ, Wid from DownUnder.
I don't want to go into too much depth, as what I would say lines up very closely with what others have said on the issue... And I hope this isn't a rerun of what someone else has already pointed out. I did not read all of the responses thoroughly.
What first comes into my mind when I read your thoughts on the predestination issue is that you were basing your beliefs on what you WANTED to believe about God. "I cannot fathom..." "For me..." etc.
Yes, on the one hand the idea of predestination, whether it be to Heaven or Hell, does seem a bit disturbing. But, the idea is completely Biblically based, and unfortunately what you can fathom, or what makes you comfortable, has not even the slightest effect on what God really is, what His actions are, or what His character looks like.
to say what your saying as "heated" discussion is a bit misconceived.... and furthermore very volatile towards God.
I do hope you pray and study scripture a bit more.... i understand calvinism is a very hard to handle subject... but ultimately God is God and I am not. which is to say we may think it is mean and ignorant for God to kill his son for some and not others.
ultimately we dont decide what is just, God does... which i guess backs up the belief of a God based salvation?
look at it this way... when you pray and thank God for your salvation you too are agreeing with calvinism... otherwise stop thanking him for your salvation and start asking him to thank you...
It is interesting how people are still posting on this, and all Calvinists. The only one post that I can see as being plausible is what pattycake said about Gods will and our free will running together. I cannot, and likely will never be able to just say we have no free will. I know the C's will say we do, but I still maintain you can't have your cake and eat it too, which is what you are doing with your positions. I can leave it as "the issue is too complicated for a human mind to understand.". The C's seem to think it is so clear, however it clearly is not. All the verses you all refer to are meant to show that God IS all powerful, and can do anything he wants and does. It also says that God is omnipotent and omnipresent, so just knowing doesn't say we are just a big collection of robots in a computer program written by God. You will keep hitting with your positions, but I am hearing the same stuff over and over. It isn't changing my mind. Also, I will never get past the logical contradiction where you say God chooses our good, but not our bad. Isn't him choosing good preventing us from choosing otherwise? Isn't us choosing bad preventing him from choosing good? It will be nearly impossible for me not to get past this "God has a good old time sending people to hell so he can enjoy watching them suffer for his glory and they had absolutely no say it." If good chooses one for hell, how can he be responsible for his own sin? That becomes Gods choosing for him not to be forgiven. If the only way to be forgiven is for God to say he can be, then how can he be held responsible? I can't get past this. You can say all you want, but it will not change that fact. Somebody said C is more logical. I see it is completely illogical. There is nothing logical about it in my mind. I would have to decide to accept the fact that God isn't logical, and this is a human sinful trait. Lastly, I feel that C beliefs contradict the bulk of the bible. Take Job for example. What is the point of the story? It isn't to show his strong faith in God as that is all God's doing. Does this become a story to show how God has some robots be strong and other robots be weak? What is the point? You can apply this logic to pretty much all parts of the Bible. With C, faith is dead. There is no such thing as faith. Belief is meaningless. Belief is purely a line of code in a program that says "I believe in God = TRUE". There is no belief.
Can anyone actually take my arguments and make a decent counter argument from a strict C position? Seriously doubtful as is proving 1+1=3.
I am stubborn, but obviously that is how God programmed me.
Whatever; I grow weary of the discussion. We are not getting anywhere as I have not heard any C argument that has even raised my eyebrow. I will concede that some of your biblical points are compelling, but I can easily argue that you are misinterpreting the meaning of the verses you use to bolster your position.
Most people confuse God's love with His justice. NEVER do this! The fact is that we all deserve His wrath, for which He must judge being a just God. It is His character, he simply will not and can not tolerate sin. However, He chooses to reveal Himself to some (all who are truly and supernaturally converted)which demonstrates His tremendous mercy and love for mankind. We are all still judged, but those who are in the Faith, are judge by Christ's righteousness of which we trust in solely.
Here is scripture that can't be taken out of context:
Romans 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
A man simply can't choose/make a decision to propitiate for his sin to an infinately Holy God. There is not "just enough good" in man to make a decision. As depraved and wicked men, we simply cannot contribute or bring anything to the table of God's salvation. The bible clearly states that God is responsible for all repentance(Romans 2:4), faith (Eph 2:8), and the giving of His spirit (Eph 2:1). In context of scripture, the words "ask, believe and confess" do not imply human choice, they are evidence of the response to the belief of the gospel. John 2:23-24, John 12:42-43, clearly implies that belief in itself is not enough, true faith/ belief is evident when it is accompanied with repentance by realization of the need to be reconciled revealed by the Holy Spirit.
Gn. 4:7 If thou doest well shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
1 Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother, And wherefore slew he him? BECAUSE HIS OWN WORKS WERE EVIL, AND HIS BROTHER'S RIGHTEOUS.
Ok, predestination, the scripture shows Cain's rejection, Abel's acceptance. Scripture also shows that Cain who God had counseled wasn't rejected due to election, but because of his actions.
Let me hear from yall!
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